How Gaming Redefines Advertising

October 2024

No longer a niche hobby, gaming has grown into a diverse, mainstream activity with billions of players worldwide. The opportunity for marketers is clear—connecting with a highly engaged audience in an environment where traditional advertising struggles to reach.

But to truly tap into the potential of gaming, brands must go beyond simply placing ads; they need to integrate into the community in meaningful ways.

The social element of gaming is often overlooked

While platforms like Facebook or TikTok offer ways to connect with friends and followers, gaming communities are more interactive and global. Unlike social media, where friendships are often limited to real-life connections, gaming connects players from different backgrounds and countries in shared experiences. Platforms like Discord and Twitch take this a step further, allowing gamers to engage with each other and with content creators in real time. For brands, this opens the door to authentic relationships with consumers.

Virtual identities matter as much as real ones

Today’s gamers are not just playing for fun; they are crafting virtual identities. Whether it’s choosing a character’s skin in Fortnite or customizing avatars in other games, digital self-expression has become as important as real-world appearance. Fashion and beauty brands are already tapping into this trend. For instance, digital skins can be linked to real-life products, creating a seamless bridge between virtual and physical worlds. The potential for brands to offer in-game items that reflect real-world styles and trends is massive and largely untapped.

Esports is bringing gaming to the big stage

Once considered a subculture, esports is now a multi-million dollar industry with global tournaments drawing huge audiences. It’s not just about the gameplay; it’s about the spectacle, the fans, and the community that comes together. Campaigns like the Call of Duty esports tournament for Prime Video’s The Terminal List have shown how brands can create engaging experiences that blend entertainment with marketing. Integrating show themes and brand elements into the gaming environment makes for a more immersive and memorable experience for players and viewers alike.

Gamers are early adopters of new media trends

Gamers were among the first to use ad blockers, signaling a shift toward more curated media consumption. The gaming audience values content that respects their space, which means brands must approach with relevance and authenticity. In-game advertising can be powerful when it’s done right—by speaking the language of gamers and aligning with the culture. Whether through branded items, interactive experiences, or co-branded events, the key is to enhance the gaming experience rather than interrupt it.

The future is blurring the lines between digital and physical worlds

With the rise of VR and AR, gaming is expanding beyond screens into physical spaces. Experiences like virtual concerts in Fortnite and live esports events illustrate how gaming can bring digital experiences into real life. For marketers, this is a chance to reach audiences in innovative ways. Imagine a branded virtual experience at a sports event, or digital collectibles that fans can keep as souvenirs. These integrations create not just impressions, but lasting memories.

The rise of non-commercial media consumption is reshaping the advertising industry. As gaming continues to grow, brands must embrace this shift by finding creative ways to connect with gamers. The key to success lies in understanding the community, speaking their language, and adding value to their experiences. The world of gaming offers a dynamic landscape where the traditional rules of advertising no longer apply, and those willing to adapt will find limitless opportunities.

This article is part of a series following the topics covered on our podcast, Pending Approval.

Glenda Wynyard is the Managing Director of The Media Precinct and host of the Pending Approval podcast. She draws on her wealth of experience in advertising to bring you key ideas from the topics covered in the show.

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Transcript - Ep 36: Get your head in the game with Ryan Cunningham

Glenda [00:00:00] Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we produce this podcast. For us, it's the Gadigal people of the Eora nation and pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. May I have your attention, please? This is Pending Approval, advertising from the inside out. Hello and welcome to the Pending Approval Podcast, advertising from the inside out. I'm your host, Glenda Wynyard, for those of you that don't know me, I've spent about a million years in media and advertising, so I think it makes me a little bit of an expert on the subject. With me as my co-host strategist, Jack Geraghty.  

Jack [00:00:43] Hi, Glenda, how are you?  

Glenda [00:00:44] I'm great, how are you? 

Jack [00:00:46] Yes, I'm pretty well, thank you. What a great chat we have for our listeners today. We had, Ryan Cunningham from You Know Media, we're talking all things gaming, which was just fascinating. Obviously with gaming, there's so many different things we could talk about but one of my favourites was the chat we had around, you know, the skins and what they call cosmetics in gaming and how we sort of project our identity onto the avatars and the characters that we play in the virtual world.  

Glenda [00:01:10] Look, you're right, he is a wonderful ambassador for gaming. I think our listeners are going to get a huge amount out of him. One of the things he talks about openly is these interactive communities and the way that these communities actually engage, with advertising. So I hope everyone enjoys today's pod.  

Jack [00:01:29] Let's do it. Welcome, Ryan.  

Glenda [00:01:31] Hey, Ryan.  

Ryan [00:01:32] How are you going? Thanks for having me on.  

Jack [00:01:34] Thank you, how've you been?  

Ryan [00:01:37] I've been very good. I've just heard you, like, in your intro, which is making me think to, ensure I've got notes written down to wow you and the audience. So that way it's, I live up to the reputation of gaming.  

Jack [00:01:49] That's what we like to hear, we'll get, you know, into all things gaming and, you know, talking about our favourite games and the different ways we can tap into it, I guess, from an advertising potential, as well. But when we start off right, we like to ask all of our guests a pretty similar question. Obviously, we all work in sort of media ad land, which is, you know, like gaming in an always-evolving space. And what we recognise a lot of the time is that for ourselves included and for some of our guests, they have, you know, a bit of an unorthodox way in or they started doing one thing, then did another. Would you mind maybe shedding a bit of light on how you got into the industry and how you got to where you are today?  

Ryan [00:02:26] Yes, well, I think probably like one of those younger, aspiring media people, I started out as a journalist. I got my first job at Fairfax back when newspapers and magazines were the biggest thing in market so that kind of shows a bit of my age there, but I end up working over there. And as I was kind of doing that, I was I kind of had a bit of a hybrid role. I was doing a bit of moonlighting as journalists and then working in advertising in the key accounts team. And, this is back before it all merged and all the things have changed. But I was there for a while, and then I used to do different kind of, roles getting into, like I used to work in sports journalism. So I got, like, a job where I was actually working at the West Tigers for a few years being their journalist, which was a very eye opening experience. And then I transitioned over, I went to a music company. Well, it's a music kind of company called MCM Media, if you guys ever remember who those guys were. So we do a lot live at the Chapel and Vevo, and I was kind of brought on to help launch Vevo and that was here in market. But when I was doing that, it was like I have been working in youth sport media. I'd done music and entertainment so like film and that and I'd always been such a passionate gamer. So I'd had, you know, multiple years in media at that time. And so what I did was I actually went and started working as a gaming journalist on the side on the weekends.  

Jack [00:03:50] Oh well, not.  

Ryan [00:03:51] And so it was a very different experience because I'd been spat at for being a sports journalist  [00:03:56]by [0.0s] fans. And then I went to gaming and I was treated quite well, like, by the game publishers. So it's a very different thing. And so what I did was I basically, I look, I always knew that there was an opportunity within gaming that was so vast. I remember this is probably like 13 years ago when gaming was a dirty word with marketers. And so I was like, look, there's such an amazing opportunity here. There's a huge audience. It's only going to grow. So I embedded myself from the journalist position so that way I could actually get all the contacts I needed, both locally and globally, because I knew I wanted to start my own business. And so I worked on that for about three years as a gaming journalist. I did fairly well, and then I ended up turning around in 2013, I took off for a bit of travel and went and met a lot of these international gaming groups and kind of pitched them an idea about us starting a business here in ANZ. And then that was how, you know, media was born in 2014. A bit of a mix obviously because it was important for me to understand it from the journalist community audience and game publishers side before I thought, hey, how can I commercialise it because I didn't want to just offer what was happening in market. At that time gaming opportunities for brands was beyond one dimensional and so I thought, look, why not create a 3D, you know, opportunity for brands in a 3D world? So that's where You Know Media was born in 2014.  

Jack [00:05:30] That's so cool, I mean, you were obviously a real pioneer in that space. And I'm sort of wondering off, off the back of that, you say it's, you know what, 13, 14 years ago, what did gaming journalism look like? What sort of games were you covering? I'm sort of imagining, I remember my brother used to go to this, I think you could almost call, like an internet cafe in the city where he'd go and play Counterstrike and that was very much when gaming was still, you know, that nerdy subcultural, sort of in the den kind of thing but what did it look like at that point in time?  

Ryan [00:05:59] Look, there were some similarities, obviously very different because that was really before the rise of YouTube and everything like it was around, but it wasn't like what it is now. So at the time, you know, written journalism was king. And so, you know, that was what I was kind of doing. I started doing a bit of video at that time, which I hope no one can ever find those videos, because it's definitely won't shine fantastic on me at the moment. But, so gaming at that time was still obviously Counterstrike things around but like, we would go into the big conferences that were massive conferences but they were closed. So if you've ever heard of E3, which actually just closed up last year, Gamescom in Germany and you go to these events and it was even then it was insane. Like, if you hadn't ever been, you didn't see what it was like. It's kind of like turning up to your first rock concert, you know, like you think that you go in and this is going to be fun. And then we would turn it up and it was, you know, the millions of dollars that they would spend on these things. There's a hundred thousand people there like, oh, the first time I went to Gamescom, I think they had something like, you know, half a million people come through this arena that they had in Cologne, and I'd never seen anything like it, like I was blown away and that and at that time I just thought, wow, it was such a positive environment too. The community was so accepting. So like again, coming from sport, I was very shocked about just how positive it was and we were received. So that look, there was a lot of different games that was when the game that's kind of had me addicted for a long time. DOTA 2 was coming out, which, you know, if any of your listeners know that game, they know what a horrible, horrible but great game that is to play, and I can't seem to get away from it, sadly. But, yes, it was a very different space. It was very much, it wasn't looked at as sector for. They weren't looking at brands at that time. They weren't thinking out that way. It was more just about just catering specifically to the community and growing the community at that time, which it's obviously evolved a bit since then.  

Glenda [00:08:04] Ryan, gaming' is obviously something you've been interested in for quite a while now. So as a kid did you actually have a game that you sort of gravitated towards or video games that sort of helped set the scene for what was going to come up in the future.  

Ryan [00:08:19] Yes, when I was a kid, I played a couple of games, which, if any of your listeners know this one and it's like Heroes of Might and Magic 3, which is a funny game that my brother and I played. We played, we had a Sega Mars system, so I used to play Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter, but I then took a little bit of a break from gaming for a couple of years, and I came back in and one of the games that really hooked me was World of Warcraft.  

Jack [00:08:46] Yes, right. 

Ryan [00:08:47] And World of Warcraft was like, it was like one of those moments in time where you just it was revolutionary. And it's, you know, a lot of gaming owes itself to that game where, it just changed the scene forever. It was this this entire world that you created characters in and you just went through and it was just so amazing. And from that, I made a lot of my really good friends that I have now, actually, a couple of my groomsmen that I have in my own wedding so I met playing World of Warcraft in the, you know what, 2008 like or something like that when it came in 2002, I think it launched or something. So like, you know, that was for me was such a, I'd never had something draw me in like that, like I'd played games and I loved them, but this was like, hey, come into this community. And, that kind of helped also set the scene for me being a businessman, because in World of Warcraft, you know, across like you have these guilds, you got to do these big, complicated raids where you get like 40 adults together on a night. You're trying to coordinate all these people and manage their expectations and their personalities and try to achieve a goal. And I, unfortunately, was the like a guild master, so God sounds nerdy when I say it like this but that really helped me to learn how to, you know, be a manager and to, you know, coordinate. And since then, I've read a lot of different kind of articles about how, you know, there are new CEOs around the world now that have all got their history and leadership from World of Warcraft.  

Jack [00:10:16] So that's interesting, yes, you say that sense of community that evolves from environments like that and I think, you know, we're talking about pioneering. It seems as if games like, WoW, were really kind of foundational in building relationships in virtual worlds like that, ones that extend beyond just, you know, platonic or even, I guess, professional in a sense, when you're trying to work on the same quests together, you know, there's countless stories of people getting married off the back of, you know, working together in those sorts of environments, which is interesting. I want to touch more on that, I guess, sense of community that evolves out of, you know, the gaming space and how that's involved in recent years in a second. But before we do that, we wanted to just talk a little bit about what you do, Ryan, and obviously what you and the team at, You Know Media do. We know, I guess, you know, with gaming advertising, I feel like I'm going to use this word a lot, but it's evolved so much in recent years. Could you talk us a little bit through I guess what the team at You Know, does and from a guest, a broader perspective that the sorts of opportunities and campaigns you work on and that sort of thing.  

Ryan [00:11:16] Yes, so look, we're a bit of a unique business because we're a bit agnostic. I kind of mentioned, a bit early, but like where we started out was a digital media company. I mean, this is ten years ago. And it was, you know, that was to kind of get our feet into the ground. But what we do now is so, it's so much more versatile. So essentially what we do is we work with all the big partners within the gaming space, and we're channel agnostic. So for us, we work across from TikTok, Twitch, YouTube, you name it, X, it's called now, to, you know, different game partners from Activision Blizzard, EA, Epic, Ubisoft. We've worked with basically everybody in the market. And then what we do is we have a lot of their data and information around this audience. So for us, when talk and look to the brand, because some of our brands are ones that are non-typical, like from insurance to, you know, QSR to normal FMCG or cosmetics, it is a big category that we work with at the moment a lot of people don't realise. And so what we'll do is we'll go, okay, let's take the data and information we have and let's then build out proper, robust strategies that work with what the client's already doing or what the goals of the client. So we try it out, we look at the brand and we go, how is, what is this brand doing already? How do we then use this information to build them a strategy that then can sometimes live on like for 3 to 5 years, which is pretty high because a five-year strategy, I think anyone's started and executed the end of it, usually, but it's about like, this is where we think it's going to go. And sometimes it can just be great campaigns that just sit on their own like that's our whole model. We do we do the best gaming campaigns and that can be different for different brands. Like sometimes we've done things like what we've done with McDonald's where we actually created Overwatch 2 meals. So Overwatch 2 is a big game that relaunched in 2022. And we created three different meals within McDonald's stores that were Overwatch meals. And they, you know, that went into a thousand stores that went across that whole the my Maccas app that they had at the time. We created co-branded IP opportunities so things like TV series, all these types of other creative. Then we created a whole big then media campaign working with talent, integrating them, distributing custom bags for the stores, like all that kind of stuff and that's like the top end that's like driving sales and things like that. But then other times what we'll do is we'll use games to kind of recreate the experience for brands and like tell a story for a brand using the gaming environment and that's something thats a lot different. And look, we do simple stuff like just plain advertising as well. Some brands just go to us, look, we love the idea of gaming, but we've got hard targets and sharp budgets and we need to make sure that this works. And that was a big thing for us with gaming, when I mentioned before, it was a dirty word in marketing, you know, nine years ago, if you wanted to spend a dollar in gaming, it had to do what $10 would do in music or sport realistically because people didn't get fired for putting, you know, YouTube ad on their plan, but they would might get looked at pretty harshly if they put gaming on there when they hadn't done it so that was what we basically have done since then. We made sure that whatever we do is focused on the return on investment and that can be to any kind of KPI, and ensuring that, look, if you spend a dollar in this space, you're going to get basically ten back what you get elsewhere.  

Glenda [00:14:45] That's brilliant, you know what, I think one of the most awesome things, as we touched on earlier, is that sense of community that gaming actually builds. I think that community piece, you know, they talk about social and community, but there is a true community that comes together with gaming. And you think about that digital campfire that's thrown around a bit in marketing circles these days. And I think about the digital environments of people who share their niche interests. And, you think about the way that it's a truly global experience when it comes to gaming. I think about Facebook communities or Instagram communities or even TikTok communities, they are all global. But actually your friendship zones tend to be within those that you know immediately. They don't tend to be global communities that you're engaging with way with gaming. It truly is a global community that you're connecting with so I find that a really fascinating difference between the two. And like you mentioned, you've got groomsmen that came out of, you know, your gaming experience type scenario. So I think about platforms like you touched on, YouTube, Pat in the corner here, Pat, you've got a YouTube stream, don't you? He's off the wire now. He's not doing it but anyway, platforms like Twitch, Discord, you know, they've become really synonymous with gaming. Can you shed some light on how these channels actually build this community or further fuel the community because I think that they could be leveraged as well, can't they?  

Ryan [00:16:22] Yes that's great insight and also, you know, it's funny you mentioned about the groomsmen. Two of my groomsmen are from New Zealand moved over here because they knew me so, which is pretty hilarious and that happens quite a lot. Oh, look, I've got so many friends internationally that every time I go overseas that I've met through gaming that I connect with still. We live in very different places in our lives now to what we were while a while ago but, you know, that's now becoming more commonplace. It's funny like using that as example for me, like, you think of me, I'm just turned 40, actually and it's not as common, a little bit for that story with me. But now for, you know, the new generation Gen Z like a lot of their friends are made through gaming and they're not in their close residence. And you when you go to events like PAX, which, you know, there's 80,000 people that come together in Melbourne, you'll just see it. It's a gathering of those communities of people to get together in real life. But it's back to your kind of question, look, you know, gaming platforms like Discord particularly are interactive communities and that's why gaming is such a unique sector or even a unique platform if people want to look at it or vertical. It is a bit different from social media, where, you know, you can leave definitely comments and post and things like that like you do in on talent's posts and on different channels like, you know, on Instagram or Facebook and things like that, but it's not so much of a two way channel, you know what I mean, like, does, yes, audiences can reply, but then the talent doesn't come back and reply that much on there. They're not having those conversations. Well, when you look at Discord or even Twitch and other streaming platforms like YouTube have the same function. It's a one-to-one engagement and this is where you've really seen it for brands can use it, but from an audience perspective and this conversation that happens, it's two-way like you'll see on a live stream, people will be talking about something, someone will say something. They'll react to that in real time as it's happening, and then they'll that'll further the conversation and the content that they're watching. It's very much about like there's no fourth wall within this and that is it really means that it's such a quicker way to have in building a community because think of it for you guys, if you went in, you say you go and see someone talk up on stage and it's great. And you can see them and you go, wow, that was awesome and then maybe later on you go and see them and you talk to them and you're like, oh, I was there for your conversation, but they don't know you were there. You [00:18:52]know what I mean, so [0.1s] they see you as like just a face in the crowd and that's fine that's that format. But for this, it's, they know you're there, this audience knows you're there. So the audience participates in what the content is as it's being created and that really creates such a fast bond and also a community. And it's why you see things like, you know, we just did a session yesterday with Game On Cancer, which is an initiative that uses gaming to drive donations, and gaming has exploded for them in a way to drive donations because the audience is so engaged and so passionate, because they can have that thing. They don't just like, watching this content and this is my favourite show. I'm tuning in because I'm a part of what's happening right now. Therefore engagement level is so much higher.  

Jack [00:19:36] Yes, I've, you know, I've witnessed firsthand how those relationships are built in those environments. You know, I'm a bit of a, light touch, albeit but every now and then we'll jump onto Twitch. And I really enjoy that experience of just, you know, if it's a game that I don't really own a console anymore, but if there's a game I'm quite interested in, or I just want to see what it looks like, I'll sort of just watch a, you know, a playthrough and you come across some of these streamers who, you know, may not be in the top ten, you know, streamers globally, but they have really built such a close knit community and almost to the point where, you know, they're referring to each other well, not by, you know, on a first name basis, on a user name basis, I guess you should say. But it's interesting you say that, in the context of cancer and seeing how charity works in that space, too, because it's actually incredible how vulnerable people are willing to be in those environments and how much support they actually get through that community, too, which is really nice. I think when you're talking about, you know, vulnerable aspects of your life because you can kind of have that anonymity there if you want it to, which is really cool. So, yes, obviously, again, it's such a multifaceted industry that is gaming now and something that I sort of was thinking about with one of the parts of gaming, which is esports is, you know, people might say on a Monday morning, did you catch the game on the weekend? But now there's a whole different thing they could be talking about. You know, esports is just growing by leaps and bounds year on year. And I know that with You Know that you did an award winning campaign with Prime Video, which I think was around Call of Duty, if that's right. Would you mind shedding a bit of light on how that worked and I guess how the esports component of it came to light because I'm still even myself, pretty in the dark when it comes to all that esports sort of sector.  

Ryan [00:21:17] For everyone out there listening, a good kind of summary for esports is think of it as like a professional video game. So it's like it's competitions and it can it can range in a whole different types of forms, but also all different types of games. Like, you know, they have ones that are professional, you know, Mario Kart and Street Fighter. So going way back when tournaments that do are all like there's kids ones as well that you can play like professionally as well. But now there are massive tournaments that garner, you know, many millions of viewers. And yes, there's an event called Gamers8, which happens in Saudi Arabia, actually said last year the prize money was $45 million US. So I think it's got some big numbers, not just from prize money, but also then from viewership as well, like it's millions and millions of people watch esports now. 

Glenda [00:22:09] Do you think they could bring back Space Invaders? I used to be good.  

Ryan [00:22:13] It's funny, people say to me, oh, why don't you'd be professional. It's like I'm closer to being like Ronaldo in skill in football than I am to these guys in this game. But you see the high level ways that they can think. 

Jack [00:22:25] People assume it's easy, right because when you see them doing it, it's phenomenal because it's not only that strategy, but as he said before, there is hand-eye coordination to it is almost like the whole.  

Ryan [00:22:36] In like Starcraft, which is this game that's it's very popular in South Korea. It' popular everywhere, it's one of the original kind of esports games. Some of these guys have the ability to do 400 and some actions per minute. So that's the brain just firing and it's like doing things in the game. I can't click 400 times in a minute, like, you know, these guys are so fast.  

Glenda [00:22:57] But you know what, it poses a problem because how do the game developers just keep evolving to keep up with the gamers? Do you know what I mean? They got to keep ahead of the gamers and the gamers are evolving so much. How did the developers keep evolving?  

Ryan [00:23:13] Well, if you have a look a lot of the time, like, the game developers are pretty clued into their audience. I mean, they have a lot of data on the audience and the way that they play, what they're engaged with and why. So they're very, very savvy in using that to then create the new games. And if you have a look at some of the games that are coming out now, they're, I mean, they're unbelievable. Like there are some games that you just you think it was the best. You know, normally like in movies, you don't want to see the remake because it never lives up to your expectations. The remakes now, for the most part, are just the most unbelievable games that you've seen. I wish I could tap into the secret sauce of how they actually build those, but, I think I know it's a fair bit of data, but, it's pretty amazing. I mean, like, and this is the thing now, it's also it's so accessible. So when we look at e-sports and people look at how the numbers are so big or how people get really big, it's like you can play esports on your mobile, like in Asia, particularly in India like esports is mainly played through mobile because it's so accessible there but for, you know, for hear, say in Western countries, like if you've got a laptop or whatever or console you can, you can start practising, start playing and it's very aspirational and it's really exciting like people say, oh, how can you watch people play games? It's like, do you go watch people play AFL, NRL, do you like, do you play yourself and then like that's different. I was like how is it different if anything, it's actually more connected for us because sometimes we can look at international like these big players. And then we can also then go in and take what we've seen them do and then poorly try to execute it at home. And it never works and everyone gets angry at you, but that, you know, that's up to you. But, in terms of like, for us, what we do with that example. Sorry, I kind of get off tangents there. This is a unique kind of campaign, which was we worked with for it. It was actually for Chris Pratt's new show at the time called The Terminal List, which, you know, everyone knew who Chris Pratt was, but no one knew what the Terminal List was. And it was based off a popular book that had come out, from an author in the States that he'd bought the rights for. And he created a series around it, and he was really passionate about it, and it was obviously about war and espionage. So we said, well, look, you know, there is this ready community of Call of Duty fans. It is massive in Australia. It's the biggest, most renowned kind of shooter in the world. And it's got this really, really diehard community that's looking for more content like that but they don't know about it. They don't know this audience. Like, they don't get advertised to that much so what we did was we said, well, why don't we bring back because Call of Duty hasn't had an esports tournament here in Australia in a long time. So we partnered with Activision, who owned the game, and we said, why don't we build a campaign with you guys where we're going to bring back Call of Duty tournament here. We're going to get major talent from around Australia. And we actually got some Japanese talent as well because they're really popular for it as well in the region. We wanted to make it cross-region, so we're going to bring them in and we're going to get, create this really cool tournament for you but that's all and that's amazing for the game because it's promoting the game. But we said, look, what we're going to do then is we're going to integrate elements from the show into the game and the gameplay, because the show was all around like, I don't want to give any spoilers, and I might be, you know, it'd be, but like, let's just say he's a bit, confused in his mind about what's real and what's not right. So we created elements within the game around that playing on those aspects. So that way it's changed things like we redid another one, which was for Jack Ryan, which had you know, he didn't know what friends he could trust in the show. So in normally in Call of Duty, you've got your teammates. So what we did was we set all the teammates against each other as part of the challenges and the rounds in there. So it really brought the audience into the show and it was really good because like, it struck a note because Chris Pratt actually got involved himself, which he doesn't normally do. So I was there busy trying to write a script for him one night, which I had about a 24-hour turnaround. But, you know, it was amazing and just to see that how engaged, like you know, those tournament's we've got 580,000 people watching live. So think about that for an Australian tournament, think about it's like it's like having a prime time TV show that's written about your brand and that's the kind of engagement levels that you're able to achieve with this kind of stuff.  

Glenda [00:27:33] Ryan, what about virtual reality? Where's that going in gaming?  

Ryan [00:27:38] Well, look, VR is obviously it's a pretty big topic at the moment. You've got the Apple have just, you know, launched their kind of version of it, which is, I guess some people say that's more like augmented reality or AR, but it's all pretty tied together. You know, this is the thing what we talk about with gaming is gaming is not just becoming a vertical channel, it's becoming a horizontal channel, which is that it's now being used by all these other verticals to engage audiences. And VR is probably one of the elements that it's showcased that the most, because VR is synonymous with gaming. Even though VR is used now across multiple different elements, if you look at the examples, particularly what Apple use, I would say just because it's more recent is they are using it in terms of how you can engage with sport that you can sit courtside now and you can be sitting there and you can walk around like courtside at like any NBA or on the field in the NFL as games are happening, you can see it interact so much more. It's changing the way that traditional sports are using for training models. So cricket games, golf games, things like that, there are different models now that people are actually using this to ensure that, hey, we can train people better, we can do that. It also means then, you know, particularly for brands, it's creating a so much more interactivity for the way brands can engage with audiences. And we talk about this one-to-one experience. Virtual reality is you in a world that is not quite of your choosing just yet, but who knows what the future will happen with AI, and how some of the things that's how fast that's progressing. But imagine like this like imagine Gucci, it can have like Gucci land. You know, one of the big things of with them is that they try to create a certain experience for that. When you walk into the store, you get this feeling, you know, like I'm here in Gucci store and I'm part of this experience and me buying their product is basically me taking this experience away from me into the real world. Think about that now that they're limited by what a retail store can create. If you could recreate digital environments that can have a 3D world that could actually create like Gucci land, you know what I mean and you can have that full experience. And it sounds a bit comical when I say Gucci land because it makes you think of Disneyland or something like that, but think of the high end premium opportunity about the way that they could then create that, where the [00:30:02]limits [0.0s] are only in a 3D world. In short-term though, I think one of the things that's really exciting and what we'd like to see, you know, brands pushing for is how does a brand that's usually at a normal event physically, how does it show up for a virtual element of that event, like you guys have probably seen, you know, there are concerts that are happening in Fortnite now. But again, I'll take it back to say, an NBA game, imagine, this is a terrible idea that I just came up with, by the way.  

Glenda [00:30:31] No because I think I've had exactly the same idea for a client of ours.  

Ryan [00:30:36] This one is particularly like, I don't know. I just thought of it, last night. But, you know, when you go to an NBA game and there's the shirt cannon, I don't know if you've been and people go crazy for it. Imagine you had a shirt cannon but instead you've got the people who are there but VR and it shoots a digital cannon and then it shoots that shirt directly onto you digitally. So that way if you're in a VR environment with your friends, they can turn and see you and say that you got this digital shirt from this brand. And then it's like, cool, you get to keep that forever. And it's that's your keepsake that you keep but it's in a digital environment. Like there are these possibilities now it's you can really go, what does our brand do? How do I recreate a digital experience for that?  

Jack [00:31:20] Yes, it's fascinating that isn't it? I think it will touch on that a bit more as well.  

Glenda [00:31:24] We've got a Pending Approval t-shirt for you, Ryan that you could build out of that cannon.  

Ryan [00:31:28] Perfect.  

Jack [00:31:31] Like that's sort of what I was going to touch on is like it's interesting as our lives become more and more digitised, what we're going to start valuing as consumers and how we're going to, you know, predicate our identity on these sort of virtual versions of ourselves and how that evolves is just so fascinating, isn't it? Before we get into that, I just wanted to talk quickly, I think within that VR space, Ryan, you were kind of touching on this idea of, you know, what really constitutes gaming these days. You know, like is VR, it's, you know, has always been kind of synonymous with gaming. But now VR is in a lot of ways, just another way of living different aspects of your life. And within that, too, obviously you touched on mobile gaming too, and you know, from someone who plays Candy Crush, they're a gamer versus, you know, someone who plays Call of Duty, they're a gamer, too. So I think a very broad question, but do you have some insights you could share on how, you know, media meshes their audience and how that works from a client perspective? 

Glenda [00:32:26] Actually I've got a question I'm going to that leads into that, do you think that there is a misconception of what a gamer actually is?  

Ryan [00:32:36]  So definitely there is, I mean, depends on also who you talk to. Look, ten years ago when I started You Know Media, I walked in and you know account directors and CMO, and they were thinking that I was trying to sell them a 45-year-old man, who lives in his mom's basement. And why would they do that? Like, that was literally the perceptions. I've had that as a direct quote from a CEO of a bank say to me, one time and that's and that's fine. Look, there's no bad question because I think you have to expose these misconceptions first to show them the reality. And, now, look, gaming has changed quite a lot and there's a bit where, you know, the perception of gamers to consumers to the audience has changed dramatically. Everyone is a gamer now like almost like 81% of Australians play games but they play it in different ways and they don't normally classify themselves as gamers. So there are parent gamers, grandparent gamers, there are kid gamers, millennials, tradies, you name it, and people game for different reasons because there is literally a game for everything and that's what we show kind of brands as well. The misconception is definitely still prevalent because look, senior people are like, usually, you know, typically a bit older and some of these CMOs, they've got the history of what they remember gaming was when they grew up. They are starting to see that changed, particularly because of how much gaming is now influencing pop culture. Like if you see the biggest stars in the world are now jumping on board, like Rihanna will stream on Twitch every now and then, you know, they're like, what are you talking about? You've got all these major cultural influencers from other realms now that are working within gaming and just saying, well, that's part of what I do of course I do that. And it's been exposed now and that is changing quite a lot, but it's still taking a bit of education from a brand perspective definitely like that's still something we're working on.  

Glenda [00:34:37] But it's still, it's a success to have that crossover of different mediums as well. Like you're going from gaming into blockbuster TV series, you know, movies, you know, all that sort of thing, movies into gaming, you know, like there's so many different layers now to media and I don't think that they truly understand those layers actually have a massive amount of strength that they give and weave in to each other, you know.  

Ryan [00:35:08] Yes and look and I guess to see your point as well Jack around then like how we measure, you know, it's very easy to kind of show numbers about a general population of gaming and say, hey, 81% of Australians game. It's a very strange thing to hear and then go, well then what does that relevance for me and my brand and that's kind of the thing is, and we've spent a lot of time and let me just say a lot of effort in terms of us gaining the data from a lot of our partners. We've got more NDAs than you guys could ever imagine, unfortunately, with game partners, because they are very coveted around their data. I just know that like, you know, it's something where it's some of our clients, who pretty coveted their data are shocked at just how much gaming companies keep their kind of things in-house because that's how they make their money so that's understandable. But we've been very fortunate that due to our success with those game partners, that we've now got a kind of a multifaceted and a very robust measurement system that works across, you know, that we've built over the last ten years. And the way that works is that we get the data from our gaming partners. So we're very lucky to get kind of some insights from them. And it's much more than just, hey, how many people play this game, but it's like the breakdowns of how, why the time they're spent playing with certain things. What parts of games are they engaging with and what parts that they are engaging with? This kind of insights are very, very key in terms of the way this audience works. We also then get our data from our gaming media partners, like we've had contracts with the biggest kind of gaming digital platforms, like media sites all over the world that we take insights both from Australia but also internationally, other Western markets, Asian markets. We see what is different in different groups, and we kind of use that to kind of paint this picture of who this audience is and what they're doing. We've also got the, you know, a standard OnePlus data from logged in audiences because, you know, email and that although might seem a bit old, there is now a huge resurgence because these communities that are being built now want to be connected in multiple different ways and show their support so we've used all of that. And then what we do is we paint a really clear picture about the different audiences and what that means for a brand is it's about being transparent with them. You know, like I said, people will go into it, an audience for it, like you walk into an agency or client, say, do you know, 81% of Australians play games and they're like, cool. We're not trying to target 81% of people. I want to know how many of our audience buy Arnott's biscuits that are buying mascara like this is who we're trying to talk to. Talk to me about that audience.  

Glenda [00:37:52] But just on that, like we come up often against marketers, who just aren't interested in including gaming on the schedule, but they really aren't. Why is that? And what have you got to say to them? How do you convince them to sort of come across into this new world?  

Ryan [00:38:10] Well, it's unique saying this, I guess, on a podcast, because I've become a bit of a mouthpiece for the gaming industry, particularly in media land. I think most people, like a lot of people have heard, we profess the benefits of gaming. And this is my job, it's been for the last ten years, which it was funny. It wasn't part of the job that I thought I was going to have when I started this business, which is that I would have to so heavily convince people, which was sometimes right in front of their face, like, I'll go talk to certain people and they'll have anecdotal evidence within their own homes, within their friend groups, within everything. And they can be any demographic about how gaming is ever present in sectors of their lives. Yet they are still like, oh, no advertising with it or working with it but look that resistance is fading fast. Though I will say that, like now you're getting particularly with the Gen Z audience coming into the workplace, and millennials are very familiar with gaming as well. It's moving quite fast. And to be honest, it's getting to the point now where brands can't ignore it because particularly with things like the economy has, it's been, you know, the rising cost of living pressures that all types of categories are under. They need more effective ways to engage audiences. And gaming has just been starting to prove to be, you know, look, I can't say because I know every single sector, but it's very, very effective. And you can look at the brands and investing in it now, they're not doing it because of that love of gaming. I would love to say that that's what it is, and I'm super convincing, but it's actually more about because the effectiveness. And, you know, some of the things that we hear with that resistance is they've had a lack of exposure to good solutions. You know, a lot of times when someone says, hey, do you want to do something? They'll do a single platform test, and I won't say names of that, but they'll go, oh, yes, we'll throw some ads on this that'll do it and that's just not that's not a gaming solution. And then in fact, it doesn't then get them move the needle much. Sometimes it does still move the needle though. Like they'll look at it and go, hey, look, just sticking our ads in front of these audiences got us a better result than what if we had it on a different platform. And usually what we see from that is they'll do that. They go, well, there's got to be more to game than this, and that's what we get called and we usually get that and they say, hey, we did this. We did let's say Twitch, we did some, you know, gaming targeting on another platform or something like that, it still did better than normal media, but like what else can there be. And then that's usually where we turn to them and say, cool. Here's how other brands are getting insane return on investment. This is how they're getting things that fit specifically to their brand or you don't, how we can show a brand and say, you don't have to have a gaming strategy at all. You can be a brand that goes, I don't want to see the word gaming ever in an ad, ever but we want to put it in front of gamers because they're our audience and that's where they're spending most of their time. How do we do that? And game it's complexity is also its greatest strength because it's like, you know, some people go, oh, it's too complex, but if you have the right person helping you, which is I guess that's the [00:41:14]sale [0.0s] thing from us, what we profess to do, it's like we can show you, hey, that complexity, you can work for you because it means that you're going to have a custom solution that's going to then target your right audience, and it means you got almost no wastage. And that's where it started to convince a lot of people.  

Glenda [00:41:31] I agree with you. I couldn't believe, like sometimes we just get railroaded. But I think about the integration that you can actually do when a game. You talked about the Gucci experience. It's things like walking past a poster. Do you know what I mean? Like the avatars walking across a poster, or they've got recharging opportunities or just the basics, you know, like those integration ways that you talk about and how effective they could actually be for different advertisers. It just blows my mind how some of them just don't see it.  

Ryan [00:42:04] Yes, well, that's definitely been a big thing. And, for us, is doing that and you just made a really good point, which is like, you know, imagine walking by like, you know, we do in-game elements as well. And we try to show how that it's different for different brands again and that's all about that customisation. But gaming is full of head turning moments for brands, you know, as opposed where you've got like a lot of other sectors where people are trying to out shout, another brand that's right next to them, and there's a hundred brands at this one event or one game or something like that, and I'm not trying to diminish them. It's more just like that is kind of become the media landscape. Gaming is full of things that make audiences turn their head and look at the brand and go, what, whoa, this brand's here! Or look at them doing this like it's that engagement that you're paying premiums to normally get but in gaming it's like, wow, look at this thing and it's custom for us and it works therefore works really well.  

Jack [00:43:02] It's interesting that how gaming you know, you talk about where it fits in the funnel and sort of what we're talking about there is that in theory, you can have a full funnel of experience within the game itself. You can see a billboard. You can, you know, you can buy something on platform so it's interesting how that's evolving too.  

Glenda [00:43:18] So I believe that the rise of non-commercial media consumption is more important to our industry than the rise of AI.  

Ryan [00:43:28] I have to say that's such a brilliant way of hearing it from your side of the fence to us, because I guess we have, we talk about what you're talking about in a very different way. I guess I haven't heard it put that way. So it's really interesting for me to hear that from your guys' perspective.So one of the biggest things that people [00:43:47]can't [0.0s] believe is, [00:43:47]sometimes [0.0s] that I've always gone out and talked about is like things like ad blockers or premium subscriptions. Now, normally someone who has a publisher kind of element to their business doesn't like to tell people that, hey, this audience doesn't like ads, but it's not really the case that they don't like ads. It's that the ad blockers have been around for a long time. It's not something new but this audience is not consuming media in traditional ways, like, as you mentioned, like TV, radio, these things are, this is not what they're doing. They have premium Spotify and YouTube subscriptions, so they're not having to see those ads. It means that they're a very hard audience to reach. Where gaming is fantastic is that you can reach this audience because of the nature of the way how engaging and interactive this space is and the funny thing about that is a lot of the clients that we have that are getting the best results aren't doing just through their gaming things. Like everyone's pretty aware that McDonald's is one of our clients. Some of the most success that we've had is when they just put ads to say, hey, you can buy a cheeseburger for $2 this week because this audience doesn't know that. How are they seeing that normal consumption that normal media? They're not doing that. They spend most of their time. They spend over 3.5 hours a day in the gaming world, if you're not talking to them in the gaming world, you have such a small window that's clouded with all these other ads that they aren't able to see that. So they just go, oh, cool, I can go get a cheeseburger for $2. Awesome, I'm going to go do that. Like, you know, we've had things like that where it's so simple, but like, that's a way for us to show that, like, this is an environment that where people, they actively engage, they're interacting, which means that when you are advertising to them, you can find that, and it is getting harder and harder outside of these spaces to do that, because as you mentioned, things like, you know, streaming services and all these other channels, like it's not where they're going to go, oh, look, this is how we're going to spend all of our, they still are using platform like social media. They can still get ads through those ones. But again, it's a way more saturated environment for them. And those environments also doesn't mean that you're getting the engaged audience that you want because it's like some people say, oh, we've got a TikTok strategy. And I'm like, well, TikTok isn't content, it's a platform. So what's the content that you're aligning with on that platform? It's like, you know, we've got a YouTube strategy, but what on YouTube are you actually trying to engage with and how are you doing that? And if you're trying to engage on one of these platforms rather than do it through just an ad, what's a way that you can actually embed yourself into what people are there to watch on those platforms, which is gaming, or it could be something else as well. And like that's where we find is the solution, it's so different. So it's a different way of looking at what your question is but yes, we really go out there and we talk to audiences and say like their media consumption habits are different. These are the windows that you're using now that you've got time to speak to them, you've got to really adapt. 

Jack [00:46:56] Ties in really nicely to just a couple of points I wanted to touch on too. So I find it really interesting in what you were saying around, I guess, you know, gaming audiences, I'd imagine this is based on [00:47:06]no [0.0s] research, but probably, you know, some of the first groups to even implement ad blockers on the platforms that they use. And, you know, they seem to be quite a kind of early adopter sort of audience. They're tech forward, they're sort of innovative. And on what you're sort of talking to, there is, I guess, the ability through gaming platforms to have like a more sort of authentic conversation with them. I've heard you say before around the language of gaming and how important it is to kind of adapt to campaign for the platform or for the gaming industry. And I guess we sort of touched on this earlier, too, in that, you know, you don't always see great results just running a mainstream campaign or a video asset that you're running across all other platforms within gaming platforms. So just wondering if you could speak to a little bit of your sort of insight on what that looks like in gaming and sort of wondering, do you think the gaming audience is a little more skeptical to traditional advertising than others?  

Ryan [00:48:06] Look, there is a fair bit to unpack there. 

Jack [00:48:07] Yes, there is. 

Ryan [00:48:08] [00:48:08]Lot of discussion at the start. No. That's good. This is good. [3.3s] 

Glenda [00:48:13] Jack is like word vomit coming out of his mouth all the time.  

Ryan [00:48:17] Trust me, I'm the one who says too many words per minute, so I'll take that as well. So, look, I guess look at the start, one of the things with ad blockers, which is, you know, is quite interesting, is the real  rise of ad blockers at the start was about the, people were scared about the data capture. Did you remember when, like, ad block really started popping up, which is probably about 12 or 13 years ago, really in dominance. And it was because people didn't know how sites and other things were going to take their data and use it and cookies and the conversation around that was everywhere. So one thing about game is that if you've got a, you know, if you want to play certain games, you had to have a PC and you had to know how to set up some basic things. And also you usually in one of the games you're playing with, you're talking to someone who's really savvy in computers or people who at that time were like, you know, the computer engineers and coders and things like that, which now is much more common. But at that time, you know, that was the rise of it. So they were saying, oh, you can use these ad blockers and this kind of thing because we don't want people tracking our data. And the ad blocking was a bit of a side effect on it. And then obviously look at something that people have kind of jumped on because a lot of at that time, remember, this is the rise of the digital empire of advertising. So the intrusiveness of digital ads at that time was overwhelming. But what that kind of led to was a bit of a misconception that gamers hate ads. And also then that led into for brands and we've heard this quite a lot, is that, if you don't advertise exactly right to gamers, they're going to kill your brand. Like I've heard people say variations of that, which is just completely untrue, because it's more likely that they would just ignore it or they would go something like that. But look, one of the things that is great about gaming is obviously the interaction. And so we're talking about that speaking the language of this audience. But they're not an unknown people, they're everybody, they're among us. They just got something that they're passionate about and you don't always have to have the same conversation around gaming. Like, for example, like our clients are like Prime Video and Netflix and things like that, which is us introducing their content from about a different platform, a different world into the space of gaming and gamers love it. They watch content. They go to the movies. They also watch live streaming services. So they want to hear from outside platforms but what you got to realise is from a brand is you're going to have engagement with what you bring in, which is what you want. But if you're a brand that has something that is so for store that it doesn't have anything to do with like this community, then they are going to talk about your brand like that and they're going to go, well that doesn't really seem to fit or I don't really understand that or which is more likely to happen, you do a just a little bit of tweaking. And I guess that's where groups like us come in and go, hey, look, we can take like one of our biggest roles is that we take global creative that is meant for a company that has nothing to do with gaming and say, how do we customise this for this market here and this space. And we just do some slight tweaks and then that audience is like, hey, this is the way that we engage that's awesome. And you want them talking about your brand and that's what they're going to do. It's this sometimes and marketers will go, oh, I don't want them talking about that brand. I was like, well, that's what advertising is about. You want that engagement, it's just you're going to get engagement stronger than you've normally gotten in other channels.  

Glenda [00:51:47] Ryan, I just want to get off advertising for a minute. That avatar, the avatar, I'm fascinated by the psychology that translates into how people select their avatar, the characters, the skins, the clothing. Like, I think that's such a huge opportunity for fashion brands, makeup brands that you talk about.  

Ryan [00:52:13] Yes, so a lot of brands are getting into it from that space. So if you've seen like, it's been pretty funny for, I think certain people to see that like brands like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Prada, like you name it, have invested into that side of the space. Look avatars so well, people will say skin. So like in different games you have different characters and every game is different as well that's the part that sometimes is a bit confusing for people, but if you play it, it's not so much. For example, in Fortnite you can pick the different skins that you want, which is basically kind of like saying the character that you would pick in the way you want it to look, or there's tons of different games that have that. And fashion brands have been trying to get into that space now, particularly to show like, hey, look, our brands are cool, we want to share this digital environment. But one of the big things around it is that that cosmetic look in the way you present yourself digitally is as important to this next generation is the way that they present themselves physically because they're spending more and more time online and in these digital worlds than they did ever before.  

Glenda [00:53:16] That's a really good point, what's that age of entry for the average child coming through?  

Ryan [00:53:21] There is gaming for all ages so like basically if you can pick up a phone now, there are games that are for basically kids and all that kind of stuff. But where we kind of more focus on is it's really on that 12 plus, like you've got games like Roblox, which is, you know, over 50% of their audience is under 12 and 70% is under 15. So they're very much a young audience so when you see brands getting into that space that is not really like a short-term turnaround for brands that's saying basically like a Gucci saying, hey, we want these kids now in 20 years to remember when they can buy a Gucci bag that was a cool brand. When I remember, even when I was a kid, I remember what Gucci was like kind of thing is what they want them to say. So it's a very different perspective then so that's that age. But like for now, like it's not just it's not just 16-year-olds that are spending their time on that. This is 25-year-olds, 30-year-olds, 35-year-olds, think about now these generations of parents that have come in through now and they have these amazing home environments that are set up. They've got the money to build the gaming machines and things like that. Like for us parents, particularly 35 plus is such a huge category for us because there's a couple of things. One, gaming is the best dollar spent you can put into pretty much entertainment. Like you can pay, you know, say you pay $100 for a game, which is, you know, fairly expensive. That game can give you a thousand hours of gameplay. So if you think about it, the cost per hour spent, now most of the games out there are starting to become free to play, and you buy your cosmetics, so there's a huge amount of value from that. And there are these, you know, all these older audiences are getting into that space but what that means is now they're starting to put them digital identity. So their normal identity into the digital world and, you know, for particularly for Gen Z's, like two-thirds of them identify that gaming is a core part of who they are. And I play this character in this game, I play this character, this is the skin that I use, and it's why those gaming companies make so much money. But then what it does is then it shows like, you know, we did a campaign for L'Oreal last year, which I can talk about now, which it was for Garnier, which is all around, you know, cleaning up your skin. And so we went well skins are the number one commodity within gaming, right? It's the thing that everyone wants to spend. And what we did was we said, well, look, these are the experts at cleaning up your IRL skin where they're now going to help you clean up your digital skin. So what is the skin that you want to unlock within your game to show that you have this blemish free digital persona, as well as your blemish free physical persona? And it was a perfect match, and it went amazingly well because audiences straightaway started in having conversations like, oh yes, I really focus on my digital skin. You know what, I should focus more on my IRL skin and that started changing consumer behaviour. It started making people go, hey, rather than like, just like I use this product. This one speaks the language of what I do for my digital life. I'm going to work with them as well.  

Jack [00:56:24] That ties in so nicely to my next question, Ryan, because we're sort of talking about the convergence of the 'real world' and the virtual world. And we're obviously talking about, you know, the way you can implement sort of behaviour across both. And what we're sort of seeing as well is obviously, you know, we're talking about real life into gaming environments, but gaming environments are now being reflected in real life too, in the way we're seeing, you know, the uptake of, attendance at things like PAX and cosplay and all that sort of stuff. Is that something you see continuing to increase sort of the other way around, gaming coming into the real world?  

Ryan [00:56:58] Yes and that's that big element of what we talked about with the digital campfire, I believe you guys called it these communities is like, if you go down to PAX, it's in Melbourne. I advise every marketer or agency person to go and have a look at this thing. If you are struggling, give us a call and we'll see what we can hook you up. We don't have unlimited tickets because it sells out so quick, but it's 80,000 people across three days that go there. On average, they spend seven hours a day for three days there. So this audience is there because it's taking that digital world and bringing it into a physical environment and they love that and that's such a big opportunity for brands, not just at events like PAX. Like we've represented PAX because we work with their global company for years. So we work with them both internationally and locally, it's such an amazing community. And when you go that you it'll blow your minds if you go and we'll see the same things like this cosplay and all that stuff, but just the all walks of life, like you walk up, you'll see a group of people and none of the people will look alike, physically different age, all that kind of stuff but they've all built this community and this shared passion. And they're just, they're really lovely people usually like it's an amazing community but the big thing is that it shows and it showed a lot of brands is like people want to live this digital environment like the games are the things they're so passionate about. If brands can help them unlock what they do digitally in a physical environment, like they're going to back flip into money like Scrooge McDuck, like it's seriously going to be like that. Like, this is what audiences love and you see that around there, like, they love like, hey, oh, I can get this thing from this gaming world, and I can have a collectible in my real life. Like, it's not just about even just from that it is just about like, hey, you're taking this experience that I have digitally and you're helping me replicate that in real life. I want what you're selling. If that is the key to unlock me having this experience, then that's what they'll do and it's great and that's what we encourage more brands to start doing. It usually takes brands a few steps to get there, but the ones that are doing it are getting awesome results.  

Glenda [00:59:07] Ryan, thank you so much for your time. We're coming to the end, I promise you but I have one last question to ask you, and we ask our guests the same question every, every episode, if you could give your 20-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be?  

Ryan [00:59:25] Well, outside of buying Bitcoin, it would probably be, I think the advice that I'd give myself is that it does eventually pay off to be authentic to what your goals are and what your dreams are. And I guess to maybe context that is that, you know, there's been a lot of opportunistic people that have risen through gaming and come and gone in the last like ten years and things like that but sticking to what we know works or what I believe in, in terms of being right for the sector and doing what's right for gaming. Sometimes it's not always just what is an easy win for the business. There is something that for me, I would think would be a good moral kind of guide for me in all the business that I've done. So things that I did from the start of my career with, from my journalistic times all the way through to what I do now and something that I hope I hold on forever is that sometimes it's doing things right is better than doing things easy.  

Glenda [01:00:21] Exactly, I couldn't agree with you more, Ryan that's brilliant.  

Jack [01:00:25] And on that note, we'll wrap it up. Thanks so much again to our guests, Ryan from You Know Media, you can find Ryan's bio and link in our credits. And if you want to get in touch with myself or GW, please see our contact details in the bio as well.  

Glenda [01:00:37] And of course, we'd love you to join the Pending Approval community. You can sign up to our mailing list. Join in on the conversation at mediaprecinct.com.au/pendingapproval. Ciao and do come back now. Pending approval is brought to you by the Media Precinct, proudly global, fiercely independent.  

Jack [01:00:57] If your advertising or media agency is missing the mark and you want to make an impact, connect with us at mediaprecinct.com.au or call 02 8081 2660.  

Glenda [01:01:09] May I have your attention, please? This is Pending Approval, advertising from the inside out.